Reverse MvM Beginners Guide - Revision history

172.70.85.241: basic split of page to technical implementation and theory sections

2023-11-14T15:08:13Z

basic split of page to technical implementation and theory sections

172.70.42.76: /* Engineer Teleporter Types */

2023-11-12T00:01:59Z

Engineer Teleporter Types

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:01, 12 November 2023
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	Maps with gates are very useful for structuring your waves at the cost of simplicity. You can enable/disable bot spawns and connect your own custom logic to the outputs of the maps [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Trigger_timer_door trigger_timer_door] entity using AddOutput, giving you the option to add rewards or enable new mission mechanics when capturing a gate.		Maps with gates are very useful for structuring your waves at the cost of simplicity. You can enable/disable bot spawns and connect your own custom logic to the outputs of the maps [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Trigger_timer_door trigger_timer_door] entity using AddOutput, giving you the option to add rewards or enable new mission mechanics when capturing a gate.

	=== ~~<s>~~Engineer Teleporter Types~~</s>~~ ===		=== Engineer Teleporter Types ===
	~~''<s>~~There are 2 separate types of engineer teleporters: regular teleporters, and ~~engineer~~ bot teleporters. Engineer bot teleporters act as a new spawn point, and will instantly teleport players to an exit on respawn with no entrance required. It is recommended to only use bot style teleporters in long maps that do not use gates, combining gates with this feature can ~~cause balance problems as well as confusion for~~ newer players.~~</s>''~~		There are 2 separate types of engineer teleporters: regular teleporters, and bot-style teleporters. Engineer bot teleporters act as a new spawn point, and will instantly teleport players to an exit on respawn with no entrance required. It is recommended to only use bot-style teleporters in long maps that do not use gates, combining gates with this feature can confuse newer players.

	~~<sup>As of 12/07/2021, The feature to place engineer-bot style teleporters is incredibly buggy. Only vanilla teleporters and teleporters built by actual engineer-bots are currently bug-free.</sup>~~

	== Placing Spawns ==		== Placing Spawns ==
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	It's up to you to decide how you want players to lose. Timers, VIP Escort, and Tanks are popular ways to do so.		It's up to you to decide how you want players to lose. Timers, VIP Escort, and Tanks are popular ways to do so.

	==Preparing ~~Your~~ Map==		==Preparing A Non-Reverse Map==
	Because many maps were not designed for this mode, it is recommended that you go through your map of choice and remove unwanted map entities, cover up holes in bot spawn with [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prop_dynamic prop_dynamic], and generally prepare your map beforehand. For the bulk of custom logic, a [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Logic_auto logic_auto] in combination with [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/AddOutput AddOutputs] ~~is recommended~~, as it will instantly trigger when a new wave loads. For example, if your mission gives the blue team infinite ammo, it wouldn't hurt to remove redundant ammo packs from the map like so <syntaxhighlight lang="cpp">		Because many maps were not designed for this mode, it is recommended that you go through your map of choice and remove unwanted map entities, cover up holes in bot spawn with [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prop_dynamic prop_dynamic], and generally prepare your map beforehand. For the bulk of custom logic, a simple [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Logic_auto logic_auto] in combination with [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/AddOutput AddOutputs] will suffice, as it will instantly trigger when a new wave loads, however this can also be achieved with [[lua]] or [https://github.com/rafradek/VScript-Popfile-Extensions VScript]. For example, if your mission gives the blue team infinite ammo, it wouldn't hurt to remove redundant ammo packs from the map like so <syntaxhighlight lang="cpp">
	logic_auto		logic_auto
	{		{
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	"OnMapSpawn" "item_ammopack*,Kill,,0,-1"		"OnMapSpawn" "item_ammopack*,Kill,,0,-1"
	}		}
	</syntaxhighlight>		</syntaxhighlight>

	Many maps do not have gates or doors blocking the blue spawn area and will require you to add your own blockades. This can be as simple as placing a ~~prop~~ in front of the spawn and killing it when the wave starts, or as complex as creating a moving gate using [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Func_tracktrain func_tracktrain]. For our example, we'll be using a [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Func_forcefield func_forcefield], an invisible wall which can be disabled and enabled when wave start/end relays trigger using some basic AddOutputs		=== Spawn Room ===
			Many maps do not have gates or doors blocking the blue spawn area and will require you to add your own blockades. This can be as simple as placing a forcefield in front of the spawn and killing it when the wave starts, or as complex as creating a moving gate using [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Func_tracktrain func_tracktrain]. For our example, we'll be using a [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Func_forcefield func_forcefield], an invisible wall which can be disabled and enabled when wave start/end relays trigger using some basic AddOutputs
	<syntaxhighlight lang="cpp">		<syntaxhighlight lang="cpp">
	PointTemplates [$SIGSEGV]		PointTemplates [$SIGSEGV]
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	''<sup>For more complex maps with a lot of entities, it may be beneficial to strip away certain decorative elements of the map to avoid hitting the edict limit while the wave is active (such as move_rope and keyframe_rope).</sup>''		''<sup>For more complex maps with a lot of entities, it may be beneficial to strip away certain decorative elements of the map to avoid hitting the edict limit while the wave is active (such as move_rope and keyframe_rope).</sup>''

	== Upgrade Station ==		=== Upgrade Station ===

	Upgrade stations will need to be placed in blue spawns. Do your best to strategically place these in areas that don't interfere with spawn points and cover up holes in the map if there are any. If your map has particularly cramped spawns, it might be wise to use a smaller model than the traditional one to signify an upgrade station, such as a resupply locker or a small weapons case. Do note the "mins" and "maxs" values for the func_upgradestation entity will need to be adjusted accordingly<syntaxhighlight lang="c++">		Upgrade stations will need to be placed in blue spawns. Do your best to strategically place these in areas that don't interfere with spawn points and cover up holes in the map if there are any. If your map has particularly cramped spawns, it might be wise to use a smaller model than the traditional one to signify an upgrade station, such as a resupply locker or a small weapons case. Do note the "mins" and "maxs" values for the func_upgradestation entity will need to be adjusted accordingly<syntaxhighlight lang="c++">

172.71.26.16: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-11-03T06:22:27Z

Placing Spawns

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:22, 3 November 2022
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	The best red spawn locations are not immediately noticeable and let bots navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.		The best red spawn locations are not immediately noticeable and let bots navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.

	Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided ~~unless done as a deliberate design choice~~. ~~On the flipside, spawning~~ bots ~~miles~~ away from the player ~~or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight~~ is equally problematic and ~~will~~ ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.		Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided. Spawning bots very far away from the player however is equally problematic, and can ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.

	It is best to divide your map into distinct areas and place spawns accordingly for where those sections of the map are. Rottenburg, for example, could be cut into 3 areas that players need to progress through before deploying the bomb: The front, the church tower/bridge area, and the hatch. Spawn timings, bot types, and accompanying sub-waves, can then be adjusted depending on how long you want players to spend in each individual area of the map.

	== Friendly Robots ==		== Friendly Robots ==

172.70.115.3 at 20:43, 2 April 2022

2022-04-02T20:43:17Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:43, 2 April 2022
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	Reverse MvM is a combination of [https://sigwiki.potato.tf/index.php/WaveSchedule custom popfile keyvalues] that flips the teams and win conditions. Instead of defending against hordes of robots, players are spawned on the blue team and must fight their way to the hatch and deliver the bomb. Designing missions around this concept can be very complex and requires heavy usage of [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2289315026 Point Templates]. It is highly recommended that you have a basic understanding of hammer and map logic beforehand, as well as a deep understanding of our [https://testing.potatomvm.tf/mvm_bigrock_sigdemo.pop popfile mods].		Reverse MvM is a combination of [https://sigwiki.potato.tf/index.php/WaveSchedule custom popfile keyvalues] that flips the teams and win conditions. Instead of defending against hordes of robots, players are spawned on the blue team and must fight their way to the hatch and deliver the bomb. Designing missions around this concept can be very complex and requires heavy usage of [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2289315026 Point Templates]. It is highly recommended that you have a basic understanding of hammer and map logic beforehand, as well as a deep understanding of our [https://testing.potatomvm.tf/mvm_bigrock_sigdemo.pop popfile mods].

	An example popfile for Rottenburg can be found [https://testing.potato.tf/tf/scripts/population/mvm_rottenburg_reverse_core_logic.pop ~~here]. Red robot template files can be found [https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9lri6egkhp5o8o/redbots.zip?dl=1~~ here].		An example popfile for Rottenburg can be found [https://testing.potato.tf/tf/scripts/population/mvm_rottenburg_reverse_core_logic.pop here].

	== Maps ==		== Maps ==

173.245.52.193: /* Preparing Your Map */

2022-02-21T07:41:41Z

Preparing Your Map

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:41, 21 February 2022
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	''<sup>* is a [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Wildcard wildcard] that can be used to reference multiple entities with the same prefix. It is only limited to suffixes (_start_relay would not work)</sup>''		''<sup>* is a [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Wildcard wildcard] that can be used to reference multiple entities with the same prefix. It is only limited to suffixes (_start_relay would not work)</sup>''

	''<sup>For more complex maps with a lot of entities, it may be beneficial to strip away certain decorative elements of the map to avoid hitting the edict limit (such as move_rope and keyframe_rope).</sup>''		''<sup>For more complex maps with a lot of entities, it may be beneficial to strip away certain decorative elements of the map to avoid hitting the edict limit while the wave is active (such as move_rope and keyframe_rope).</sup>''

	== Upgrade Station ==		== Upgrade Station ==

172.70.230.16: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-02-21T07:36:45Z

Placing Spawns

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:36, 21 February 2022
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	== Placing Spawns ==		== Placing Spawns ==
	[[File:Rotten.png\|thumb\|Custom spawn and sub-wave layout example for Rottenburg.]]		[[File:Rotten.png\|thumb\|Custom spawn and sub-wave layout example for Rottenburg.]]
	The best red spawn locations are not immediately noticeable ~~to players~~ and let bots ~~quickly~~ navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.		The best red spawn locations are not immediately noticeable and let bots navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.

	Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.		Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.

172.70.230.16: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-02-21T07:34:56Z

Placing Spawns

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:34, 21 February 2022
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	== Placing Spawns ==		== Placing Spawns ==
	[[File:Rotten.png\|thumb\|Custom spawn and sub-wave layout example for Rottenburg.]]		[[File:Rotten.png\|thumb\|Custom spawn and sub-wave layout example for Rottenburg.]]
	The best red ~~spawns aren’t obvious~~ and let bots quickly navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.		The best red spawn locations are not immediately noticeable to players and let bots quickly navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.

	Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.		Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.

172.70.110.212: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-02-21T07:32:54Z

Placing Spawns

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:32, 21 February 2022
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	The best red spawns aren’t obvious and let bots quickly navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.		The best red spawns aren’t obvious and let bots quickly navigate the map to hunt down players as efficiently as possible, regardless of the bomb path.

	Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes		Spawning bots in easy to notice areas can break the illusion of RED having control over the map, and should be avoided unless done as a deliberate design choice. On the flipside, spawning bots miles away from the player or making them take needlessly long routes to join the fight is equally problematic and will ruin wave pacing. It’s important to strike a balance between these two extremes.

	It is best to divide your map into distinct areas and place spawns accordingly for where those sections of the map are. Rottenburg, for example, could be cut into 3 ~~distinct~~ areas that players need to progress through before deploying the bomb: The front, the church tower/bridge area, and the hatch. ~~Spawns~~ and accompanying sub-waves can then be adjusted depending on how long you want players to spend in each individual area of the map.		It is best to divide your map into distinct areas and place spawns accordingly for where those sections of the map are. Rottenburg, for example, could be cut into 3 areas that players need to progress through before deploying the bomb: The front, the church tower/bridge area, and the hatch. Spawn timings, bot types, and accompanying sub-waves, can then be adjusted depending on how long you want players to spend in each individual area of the map.

	== Friendly Robots ==		== Friendly Robots ==

192.168.1.218: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-02-18T05:56:23Z

Placing Spawns

Show changes

192.168.1.218: /* Placing Spawns */

2022-02-18T04:50:06Z

Placing Spawns

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:50, 18 February 2022
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	Bot spawn timing and placement is the most important ingredient for making your mission enjoyable. Each spawn must be carefully chosen to cover as much ground as possible.		Bot spawn timing and placement is the most important ingredient for making your mission enjoyable. Each spawn must be carefully chosen to cover as much ground as possible.

	It is best to divide your map into distinct areas ~~that players need to conquer before progressing to the next stage,~~ placing spawns accordingly for where those sections of the map are. Rottenburg, for example, could be cut into 3 distinct areas that players need to ~~beat~~ before deploying the bomb: The front, the church tower, and the hatch. Spawns and accompanying sub-waves can then be adjusted depending on how long you want players to spend in each individual area of the map.		It is best to divide your map into distinct areas and placing spawns accordingly for where those sections of the map are. Rottenburg, for example, could be cut into 3 distinct areas that players need to progress through before deploying the bomb: The front, the church tower/bridge area, and the hatch. Spawns and accompanying sub-waves can then be adjusted depending on how long you want players to spend in each individual area of the map.

	A common mistake new reverse mission makers will make is placing spawns very close to the player in order to ensure ~~players~~ don't make too much progress too quickly, then waiting for all bots to be dead in the previous sub-wave before spawning the next. It is best to avoid this and place your spawns behind cover along the main bot path, letting bots navigate their way to the player themselves. This serves multiple purposes:		A common mistake new reverse mission makers will make is placing spawns very close to the player in order to ensure they don't make too much progress too quickly, then waiting for all bots to be dead in the previous sub-wave before spawning the next. It is best to avoid this and place your spawns behind cover along the main bot path, letting bots navigate their way to the player themselves. This serves multiple purposes:

	* New sub-waves can be seamlessly blended into old ones easily, rather than abruptly ending and having new bots appear out of thin air.		* New sub-waves can be seamlessly blended into old ones easily, rather than abruptly ending and having new bots appear out of thin air.
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	* It better highlights the direction players need to go if they get lost, as they can simply follow the trail of red bots to the next location in the map.		* It better highlights the direction players need to go if they get lost, as they can simply follow the trail of red bots to the next location in the map.
	* If bots stray too far from players, they will not cause the wave to hang if <code>WaitForAllSpawned</code> is used instead of <code>WaitForAllDead</code>		* If bots stray too far from players, they will not cause the wave to hang if <code>WaitForAllSpawned</code> is used instead of <code>WaitForAllDead</code>
	* ~~Letting~~ bots ~~swarm~~ the map ~~and not forcing fights onto players improves~~ replay value ~~and is less formulaic~~		* Due to the semi-random behavior of bots when navigating the map, different playthroughs will have minor pacing changes that can improve replay value

	== Friendly Robots ==		== Friendly Robots ==
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	Do note that players are able to interact with bots in several ways. Heavies can heal them with lunchbox items, medics can uber them, soldiers can whip them, and bots will take nearby active teleporters. All of these features can be modified or disabled.		Do note that players are able to interact with bots in several ways. Heavies can heal them with lunchbox items, medics can uber them, soldiers can whip them, and bots will take nearby active teleporters. All of these features can be modified or disabled.

	~~<sup>*Max escort limit can be adjusted with FlagEscortCountOffset, or by giving the bot Action EscortFlag</sup>~~
	==Lose Condition==		==Lose Condition==
	In order to fail the wave when players lose, you will need to add your own [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Game_round_win game_round_win] entity like so:		In order to fail the wave when players lose, you will need to add your own [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Game_round_win game_round_win] entity like so: